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AutoX/Road Racing with no P/S??!!

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:48 pm
by keeders08
AutoX/Road Racing with no P/S...? Anyone ever do it on the regular or atleast tried it? Is it hard? Easier possibly? too much effort? lol
Someone give me some feedback on this. :shock:

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:42 pm
by Doug95neon
Not that much fun for auto-x. Remember there's lots of steering input involved and that includes hairpin turns/pivot cones where steering is SSSSsssoooooo nice to have. I threw a belt off on course once and it was kind of exciting. Like fighting a big fish on a little pole.

Road course may not be too bad though as the turns tend to be easier and you maintain more speed through it.

Proper deletion while keeping the p/s gear would involve routing the hoses back to each other. You may want to use more than "just enough for the job" as you still create heat in the system. Draining the fluid just ends up seizing the gear after a while.

Try some searching around I think some guys run a steering gear off of a shadow or something. The gear ratio is even shorter making it better than even the mopar performance.

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:20 am
by keeders08
Doug95neon wrote:Not that much fun for auto-x. Remember there's lots of steering input involved and that includes hairpin turns/pivot cones where steering is SSSSsssoooooo nice to have. I threw a belt off on course once and it was kind of exciting. Like fighting a big fish on a little pole.

Road course may not be too bad though as the turns tend to be easier and you maintain more speed through it.

Proper deletion while keeping the p/s gear would involve routing the hoses back to each other. You may want to use more than "just enough for the job" as you still create heat in the system. Draining the fluid just ends up seizing the gear after a while.

Try some searching around I think some guys run a steering gear off of a shadow or something. The gear ratio is even shorter making it better than even the mopar performance.
VERY INFORMITIVE...Thanks alot dood! :D

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:11 am
by mtownneon
Road racing with the power steering disconnected is not a big deal, the only thing you notice is more pronounced feedback through the steering wheel (not necassarily a bad thing).

As for autoXing, that's a different story; as has been said already, combine the lack of power assist with low speed quick manuvers and it's a real pain. I auto-Xed one of our ITA Neons last year with the power steering disconnected and did miserably and had no fun doing it.

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:21 pm
by keeders08
mtownneon wrote:Road racing with the power steering disconnected is not a big deal, the only thing you notice is more pronounced feedback through the steering wheel (not necassarily a bad thing).

As for autoXing, that's a different story; as has been said already, combine the lack of power assist with low speed quick manuvers and it's a real pain. I auto-Xed one of our ITA Neons last year with the power steering disconnected and did miserably and had no fun doing it.
I pretty much figured what you guys have said for the most part, i like the feedback i get with no powersteering when taking speed into a turn, its nice. I would like to know more about this Shadow steering gear though!

Thanks to you as well man! :D

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:12 pm
by Doug95neon
You'll need to research that shadow stuff on your own. Me providing information works one of two ways. Either I know too much and go in to way too much detail or I only know enough to tease you and can't be of much use. This situation... I'm just teasing you.

The accidental loss of assist last year was interesting. Really brought me closer to being one with the tires and I felt sorry for them cause I was working them hard.

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:05 pm
by bone-yard-racing
I never missed PS on the auto-x course I am an overdriver and it made me slow down.

Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:32 am
by keeders08
bone-yard-racing wrote:I never missed PS on the auto-x course I am an overdriver and it made me slow down.
So ur sayin' p/s slowed you down right?

I'm def. going to look into the shadow steering gear. Anyone have an idea on how painful the gear swap could be? difficulty is no issue as i plunge into things im unconfident about with beer and cigs.. lmao (trust me i know that isn't the greatest idea)

Anyway, how bout I broke off a torx bit(i think thats what its called) in the hole to adjust idle on the TB.. :shock:

wtf i do these things..? i wouldnt know, i swear the beer was not involved in this one.

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:14 pm
by bone-yard-racing
First of all until the number of broken T20 bits in your tool box is more than 20 you arent a proper neon-er or maybe you buy TBs :lol:

With no P/S you have to work a lot harder to turn the car therefore my steering inputs became much slower and more gentle that is the way to more speed. My car was set up to be unstable(dedicated auto-x car that I drove on the street) so it took a fraction of the steering input an occasional auto-x/street car will. The shadow rack will get you the steering speed no problem. The easiest way to do the rack would be with the engine out of the car or you could drop the K-frame

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:16 am
by keeders08
bone-yard-racing wrote:First of all until the number of broken T20 bits in your tool box is more than 20 you arent a proper neon-er or maybe you buy TBs :lol:

With no P/S you have to work a lot harder to turn the car therefore my steering inputs became much slower and more gentle that is the way to more speed. My car was set up to be unstable(dedicated auto-x car that I drove on the street) so it took a fraction of the steering input an occasional auto-x/street car will. The shadow rack will get you the steering speed no problem. The easiest way to do the rack would be with the engine out of the car or you could drop the K-frame
Good deal, i'll have to look into the shadow steering gear then!

and as for the T20 bits, i broke 2 more trying to adjust my idle..:-(

Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:32 am
by bone-yard-racing
Heat the TB up with a soldering iron and use the T-handle torx drivers from harbor freight they seem to hold up the best for me

Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:46 am
by keeders08
bone-yard-racing wrote:Heat the TB up with a soldering iron and use the T-handle torx drivers from harbor freight they seem to hold up the best for me
Harbor does have good stuff. lol :D

Anybody with a comment on the difficulty of swapping to a Shadow steering gear? :D

Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:30 am
by bone-yard-racing
big .org write up:
http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=227583

The manual says you just have to drop the k-frame enough to get the steering rack clamp bolts out and I guess you can pull it out from there. It really doesnt look too hard.

Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:22 pm
by keeders08
bone-yard-racing wrote:big .org write up:
http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=227583

The manual says you just have to drop the k-frame enough to get the steering rack clamp bolts out and I guess you can pull it out from there. It really doesnt look too hard.
Ok that was pretty good, but i wonder if ne-one has a more detailed write up with all the adjustments needed and how to figure out what ratio you already have...

For example, he says he has a highline and it had 18:1...
I'd like find out what each 1st Gen has and post it up on here with the ratios of each.

I assume that the ACR and possibly the Sport, which i have, have a more responsive steering gear..?

Once I do this swap and get all the info, i'll just post the whole thing up myself here on 1gn if nothing comes up before then.

OOH.. and its said in that .org post that Shadow gear makes it harder to turn...? lol wtf are we getting into now.. jeeezus

Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:43 pm
by bone-yard-racing
Manual rack is 22:1
Sport/Highline/Expresso/Base rack is 18:1
acr/RT rack is 16:1